Hill joined the Marist Brothers in 1962 and began his Marist education when he was 18. Hill is a psychologist.

From 1996 to 2007 he was a member of the Bishops Conference and Catholic Religious Australia National Committee for Professional Standards. Through the same period he was a member of the board of Encompass, which was a treatment facility for male priests and religious, that was expanded to cater for men and women religious who needed to undergo psychological treatment.

Hill: “It was originally instituted as a direct response to the issue of sexual abuse in the church. It was later expanded to a much broader treatment base.”

Encompass was disbanded in 2007 or 2008.

Justice Peter McClellan has asked Hill why it was disbanded. He has told the royal commission it was disbanded because the bishops withdrew funding.

McClellan: “Did the board agree with the decision?”

Hill: “The board had no say in it eventually.”

McClellan: “What was the board’s role?”

Hill: “It was a board of governance, but without money you have nothing to govern.”

McClellan: “That’s true, but did you say anything to the bishops about whether it should be shut?”

Hill: “I did.”

McClellan: “What did you say?”

Hill: “That it shouldn’t be shut.”

Hill said the bishops on the board of Encompass agreed with him, but he didn’t know where it went from there.

He could not tell the royal commission what it was costing the church to run the centre.

Hill: “It was staffed by highly professional people and it was not cheap, but I’ve forgotten all details of the budget.”

McClellan: “Was there any question that the need had disappeared?”

Hill: “The need certainly had not disappeared.”

Hill is now being questioned about Brother Romuald, and a file note made by Hill that is headed “First notification”.

Hill said he doesn’t know why he called it that, and said it was unusual.

A parish priest phoned him about two men who had spoken to him about experiences they had as teenagers at Maitland. They mentioned the names Fingal and Romuald.

Hill: “I told the caller that Romuald left the order quite some years ago and that Fingal was now an elderly man, fairly ill. I added that there had never been the merest whisper about Fingal up to this point. Fingal had in fact been the principal at Maitland in those days.”

Counsel assisting Stephen Free: “Just pausing there, it gives the impression, Brother Michael, that you were drawing a distinction, that in relation to Brother Fingal, there had never been the merest hint or whisper, but there might have been in relation to Brother Romuald, was that the case?”

Hill: “Not that I recall, no.”

Hill is now being questioned about a letter he received from Maitland-Newcastle Bishop Michael Malone in 1996 with allegations that Brother Patrick and Brother Romuald touched some kids, and it was common knowledge among the kids that both Brothers acted inappropriately. 

In his response Brother Hill wrote: “I note with regret your information concerning the actions of two of our men at Hamilton in the early 1970s. This is not the first time that each of these has come to our attention. For your own peace of mind I can assure you that, after thorough investigation, it would seem that aspects of the behaviour of Brother Patrick were certainly injudicious and inappropriate but not criminal in nature. The other person left the Brothers almost 20 years ago.”

Free: “So was there any investigation undertaken in relation to Brother Romuald having carried out abuse before he left the Marist Brothers?”

Hill: “Well, I had nothing to investigate. The answer is no, I had nothing to investigate.”

Free: “He personally was beyond your jurisdiction in the sense that he was no longer part of the Marist Brothers..”

Hill: “That’s correct.”

Free: “But did you appreciate by this time in 1996 that one of the issues that was looming large in the church community – by that I include the religious orders – was how they had responded historically in the past to incidents?”

Hill: “Oh, absolutely, yes. That was why Towards Healing was constructed in the first place.”

“I was raised in a Catholic family and have devoted my whole life to being a Catholic. I attended Catholic schools as a child. I have spent over 80 years attending the Sacred Heart Church at Hamilton.”

She was a volunteer St Vincent de Paul worker for 30 years, treasurer for 25 years. She started working in 1976 as housekeeper for the Sacred Heart parish presbytery.

She had five children, including CQT.

Nash said she had not had much involvement with the Marist Brothers until CQT started at Hamilton Marist schools.

“I found the Marist Brothers on the whole to be arrogant and pompous. They always talked down to me and made me feel beneath them. I was quite frightened of them, and they had a reputation as being fierce disciplinarians. I knew that the Marist Brothers would cane students for very minor things, like not having their socks pulled up or having dirty shoes, or if their tie wasn’t straight,” Nash said.

She has told the royal commission about CQT’s behaviour and how it deteriorated, and how their relationship deteriorated. He told her about being caned and the brothers tucking in their shorts.

Audrey Nash has confirmed CQT came home with hands so swollen, from being caned, that he could not open and close them.

She is talking about her other son Andrew, whose class master in 1974 was Brother Romuald.

One day, in March or April 1974, Andrew didn’t come home until 6pm.

“It was getting dark and I was getting frantic and going to go up to the police. He was very subdued and quite, not himself at all.”

He said he had been to Bar Beach.

“I wonder how he got there, it was quite a walk from the school. The next day Andrew was very reluctant to go to school but I made him. During that year I noticed Andrew’s behaviour began to change. He constantly didn’t want to go to school and often claimed to be sick. He became very subdued and withdrawn. it was a change of behaviour in a boy who always loved going to school.”

“That afternoon I had picked him and his sisters up from school. After dinner, he had his bath and asked me up to iron his sports clothes for the next day. He went to his room to do his homework, and about 10 minutes later, his sister wanted a rubber. I told her to go and ask Andrew. She said she couldn’t get in the room.”

“When we opened the door and found him, he had hanged himself behind the door. Bernadette and I started screaming and CQT came running. I was trying to hold Andrew up while CQT tried to get him down.”

Audrey Nash has told the royal commission that Father Bill Burston arrived, then Father Tom Brennan and Father Patrick Helferty, Brother Romuald, Brother Christopher and Brother John.

“I don’t know how the Marist Brothers knew what had happened to Andrew that night, because I never called him,” Nash said.

“Three days later we had Andrew’s funeral. Father Cahill said the mass. The Brothers all turned up to the funeral. After that, I never heard or saw them again, not once.”

“After the mass Father Cahill never came near me. He never rang, never came to the house. Nothing. Andrew had been a favourite of Father Cahill‘s and his senior altar boy. So much for pastoral care.”

Audrey Nash is now giving evidence about her contact with Father Vince Ryan.

In the middle of 1976 she started work at the Hamilton presbytery where Patrick Cotter was parish priest. Six months later Vince Ryan joined him. He told Nash he had been in Melbourne to do a course and had spent the rest of the year having a holiday.

“Father Ryan also told me that Father Cotter had asked him to run a youth group for the altar boys on a Friday night. Father Cotter had also told me he wanted to Father Ryan more involved in the parish and asked him to take on the role. My daughter Bernadette was still at primary school and so I asked Vince, ‘What about the girls? There is nothing on for the girls’. Father Ryan said, ‘I don’t get on with girls.’”

“I now believe that Andrew was sexually abused and that he took his own life because of the abuse. I also believe the reason that brothers Romuald, Christopher and John came to our home the night of Andrew’s death was to try and find out if there was any evidence that Andrew left behind in relation to the abuse, such as a note.”

After Romuald was convicted, Nash asked Detective Sergeant Kristi Faber to ask Romuald if he had sexually abused Andrew, because “it would provide a lot of peace of mind to actually know what happened”.

“She came back and told me that Brother Romuald’s lawyers would not let her speak to Brother Romuald, but one of the lawyers undertook to ask Brother Romuald. We never heard anything more about it.”

“I spent my whole life committed to my church and working for the Catholic Church. At my time of greatest need, after Andrew died, the only pastoral response I got from the church was (redacted) telling me that sexual abuse of boys has been going on for thousands of years,” Nash said.

“I don’t go to church now. I still have my beliefs, but I am appalled at the lack of empathy, the lack of support and the lack of concern for all the people affected by child sexual abusers. I am disgusted by the efforts of the church to cover up the abuse and to protect the abusers.

“I have been devastated by what happened to CQT and Andrew, and my children and I have been just as devastated by the reaction of all of the members of the Catholic Church. I have been left feeling empty. I also feel so stupid that I used to fear and revere these people and that I used to respect them and look up to them.”

He is 58 years old. His parents, Herbert and Audrey, raised their five children as Catholic. His youngest brother Andrew died at 13, in 1974.

Their parish was Sacred Heart Church at Hamilton. CQT served as an altar boy from the age of 10.

All five children attended Sacred Heart Primary School, run by Mercy nuns. “Certain sisters would regularly punish kids by hitting us with rulers, canes and punching us with their fists. When I finished primary school I was glad to be getting away from the Sisters.”

CQT went to Hamilton Marist Brothers.

“I would describe several Brothers and lay teachers at the school as vicious and sadistic thugs. They enjoyed punishing and humiliating boys in class. One in particular was Brother Cassian. One day a stray kitten came into the schoolyard near the year 7 classrooms. Brother Cassian kicked it so hard it suffered a fatal injury. I saw him hold kids up, punch them and then let them drop on the floor. He did it to me multiple times and left bruises. He would also throw classroom items at students,” CQT said.

“One lay teacher beat a student repeatedly until he was curled up on the ground crying, and another teacher would have a big smile on his face if he made a kid cry.

“What became more difficult was that at church every Sunday I would hear how great the brothers were. The nuns and the Brothers would be seated in the church and all the parishioners would try to say hello to them, including my mother. But I was sitting in church with the other boys thinking, ‘What the hell is going on?”

“From about 1970 I started to lose it a bit and was using alcohol and cigarettes and stealing to buy both. I got very angry because of the way I was being treated.”

CQT said police came to the school several times to interview him and other boys “about some of our crimes”.

“Each time the police came, Brother Christopher punished us severely by caning us as hard as he could with a thick cane.”

“Brother Christopher’s nickname was Chuckie.”

CQT said Brother Patrick once put his hand down inside CQT’s pants and “fondled me on the bottom”.

“In 1972 when we were in year 10 one boy who was particularly targeted said to me ‘I wish Brother Patrick would keep his hands off me’. This boy had a tragic life and died quite young.”

CQT said he spoke to his mother about the Marists putting their hands down boys’ shorts, but “She would cry or just say ‘Tuck your shirt in’ or ‘Don’t talk about the Brothers’. At this point in time, saying these things about a religious person was not well received by my mother and it made her upset and uncomfortable.”

CQT has told the royal commission that Brother Dominic was always touching boys, and put his hands down CQT’s pants within two weeks of starting class with him.

CQT finally persuaded his mother to let him leave the Marist school, and moved to St Pius X, Adamstown.

CQT’s brother Andrew started school at Hamilton Marist Brothers in 1973. Andrew was in year 8 in 1974, when Dominic and Romuald were his main teachers.

“In October 1974 Andrew took his own life by hanging himself on a hook on the back of the door in his bedroom with his dressing gown cord. I was home but my younger sister found him first. Audrey was screaming and my sisters were screaming. I think my mother ran out of the house and told a cab driver to ring a priest and an ambulance. Father Cahill was the parish priest but he was away that night. I remember that within about two hours of my brother dying, Father Bill Burston arrived. Father Tom Brennan and Father Pat Helferty, the principal at St Pius X, also came to the house. Brothers Romuald, Christopher and Brother John O’Brien also arrived at our house. I couldn’t say who came over first,” CQT said.

“They ignored me and they were mainly talking to each other and then to Audrey. I heard Brother Romuald ask Audrey ‘Did he leave a note?’ Audrey said ‘No’. Then Brother Romuald said ‘Did he say anything?’ And Audrey said ‘No”. Then Audrey asked ‘What happened at school today?’ and he said “Nothing.”

“Then the priests and the brothers packed up and left. Not one of them offered any pastoral care, any counselling or any help.”

“My family and I were shattered by this event. My dad was away on a ship and he had to be informed. He came home the next day, in the afternoon. He was broken and he never recovered. My parents were so distraught that two days after my brother died, I was the only one who was able to go to the morgue and identify Andrew’s body. I did my higher school certificate within a few weeks and there was zero support form the church or any of the priests or lay teachers at my school. It was like I didn’t exist. I was completely ignored.”

“I went to Charlestown police in 2008. I was telling the police about Andrew’s death and also told them about what had been happening with Brother Dominic, Brother Romuald and Brother Patrick, and the sexual abuse they had been committing. They took notes of my story but they said they had a pretty full case load with other abuse investigations.

“I believe that Andrew was sexually abused at Marist Brothers Hamilton and that he took his own life because of the abuse. I also believe that the reason that Brother Romuald and Brother Christopher came to our house the night of Andrew’s death was to try to find out if there was any evidence that Andrew left behind in relation to the abuse, such as a note. They certainly didn’t seem to be there to provide any support to us. Following the visit on the night of Andrew’s death, not one of the brothers or priests ever called or came to our home again, not even for a cup of tea with my mum.

“I have since heard that Fathers Bill Burston, Maurie Cahill and Corrigan have described Andrew’s death as an accident while playing hide and seek with his sister or as a prank gone wrong. I do not believe this to be true and I consider it a complete lie.

“Several years later, some of Andrew’s friends told me that the Marist brothers at Andrew’s school in Hamilton told his classmates that Andrew had an accident playing on the Hills Hoist clothesline.”

CQT said his experience at Marist Brothers Hamilton had destroyed his relationship with his parents.

“It caused a rift with my mother and father, and my father died while it remained unresolved. Since the royal commission started, I have rebuilt the relationship with my mother but that won’t replace the missing 40 years since I left the school.”

CQT is now talking about suicide.

“A major impact on the community in my opinion has been the number of suicides of boys who went through Marist Brothers Hamilton. Not only of my brother, Andrew, but also of many former students, including friends. Something that is important for me to mention is the suicide of one of my classmates, who was in my class at Marist Brothers Hamilton. He made complaints to police about sexual abuse by the Marist Brothers in recent years. He took his own life this year. I see a connection between Andrew’s death and my friend’s death as linked to abuse by the Marist Brothers. One of my friends who was an altar boy in Hamilton with me died a tragic death in 1976, aged 19. He was a pallbearer at Andrew's funeral in 1974 at the Sacred Heart Church in Hamilton. The other people that carried Andrew’s coffin were me and two guys that gave evidence yesterday. It feels like wave after wave of the kids dying from the 1970s until now.”

CQT said he phoned Bishop Bill Wright’s office in 2013 seeking help for his mother because she was being “harassed by clergy, nuns and parishioners for speaking out about Andrew’s death”.

“He was away from his office and he never responded to that appeal for help. His office is 500 metres from Audrey’s house, but he never reached out to her.”

CQT has praised Maureen O’Hearn at Zimmerman services, but says Sean Tynan, head of Zimmerman, is “overly supportive of the priests and the diocese, so I see him as compromised”.

“During the Special Commission of Inquiry I feel that he focused on on assisting the diocesan lawyers and the bishop and the priests, but he ignored the survivors.”

Brother Alexis Turton is being questioned about his earlier evidence that he had never received a complaint about Brother Romuald, real name Francis Cable.

Turton is being questioned about a 1995 letter to the Marist Brothers’ lawyers, in which he noted: “I write regarding Athol Cable, formerly Brother Romuald, who has taught in a number of Marist schools in NSW and Queensland. I have no detail or confirmation, but I have reason to believe that he may be accused of indecent conduct with minors during his time as a teacher and a brother. My understanding is that it would be the 1960s or 1970s.”

Turton has told the royal commission he could not recall either being aware of of “anything in the nature of sexual assault. Physical was all I heard”.

Lawyer Hilbert Chiu, for Mrs Audrey Nash and others, is now questioning Turton about how he formed the belief of accusations of indecent conduct.

Chiu: “Is it possible that someone might have just told you?”

Turton: “Well, I think if it was specific conduct, I would have remembered it, but – and I just don’t know. I can’t remember precisely what it was that stimulated that.”

In his letter Turton said he was “not aware of any other details, but I am taking the precaution of notifying you and would appreciate it if you would notify the Catholic Church Insurances”.

Chiu: “So you took the precaution of protecting the Marist Brothers’ insurance position, isn’t that right?”

Turton: “I took the precaution to ensure, if anything came up, details of which I didn’t know, that there was a possibility of cover, in – financial, yes.”

Chiu: “So you took that financial precaution, as you put it, is that correct?”

Turton: “Well, that would be one of the values of doing that, yes.”

Chiu: “Did you take the precaution of checking whether Mr Cable was still teaching?”

Turton: “I mean, he had left the order at that stage.”

Turton has told the royal commission that there were about 800 or 900 students at Hamilton Marists when he was principal.

Turton said he had not received any reports about child sex abuse by Brother Patrick or Brother Dominic, and had received no complaints from lay teachers at the school.

He said he had not heard any rumours among children about “inappropriate touching”.

It was put to Turton: “There is no doubt, is there, and you are perfectly aware, that a number of Marist Brothers used it completely inappropriately?”

Turton: “Yes.”

Counsel assisting Stephen Free has just asked for a suppression order in relation to a list of 154 names of Marist Brothers who have been the subject of an allegation of child sexual abuse, in the form of a claim or a substantiated complaint.

The list is derived from the royal commission’s records, and spans the period from 1980 to 2015.

Turton said he spoke to 52 of those Marist brothers “for the purpose of discussing allegations of child sexual abuse that had been made against them and of those 52”, 10 admitted it.

Turton is now being questioned about another complaint against Brother Patrick, received in August 1993. The complainant is referred to as CNK.

In the file note Turton writes that the complaint was in relation to Patrick’s time at Hamilton in the early 1970s.

Turton said he found CNK “a very difficult man to speak with.

Turton told CNK he had phoned Brother Patrick and “that he did not remember him, his name or the incident, he was very angry at that”.

Turton said CNK was complaining about sexual abuse.

Turton is now being questioned about a report written by him on 30 August, 1993, about Brother Patrick.

Turton’s note says: “I confronted him with this issue and four other accusations of a touch feely, type from three other schools. He was quite broken by all of this and when I asked him to get on a plane to come to see me he found he couldn’t do that. Then he found that he was not able to go back to a therapist he’d seen earlier about remotely related matters. He had earlier refused the opportunity to go to do the Crossroads program but I again pushed this very hard with him and will continue to do so hoping that he will do it. The superior has been advised simply that Patrick Butler maybe under pressure and agitated and just to keep an eye on him. Likewise, the headmaster. The fairly remote contact that he has with students would be considered not to be dangerous at all or providing possibility(sic) anything inappropriate.”

Brother Patrick agreed to see the school counsellor, but it took a number of attempts to do it.

Turton has just confirmed to the royal commission that the “superior” referred to in the note, is the head of the community Patrick was living in, at Ashgrove, in Brisbane.

Free: “Had you discussed the complaints regarding Brother Patrick with the superior at all?”

Turton: “I believe I would have said ‘He’s under stress. There have been some allegations and the school’s aware of that, the headmaster, and being supervised.”

CNK reported the matter to police.

In another report prepared by Turton in 1994, about Brother Patrick, it is noted that CNK had reported the matter to the police, “who, on finding the therapy presently taking place, have decided not to proceed for the time being and possibly permanently. Police will only move again if they have another approach from CNK”.

The report also notes: “Butler broken up by all of this as he could remember nothing and interpret nothing that he did as in any way inappropriate. part of the agreement with CNK was that Butler would undertake intense therapy to see whether there was a possibility of serious denial in this situation.”

Turton said he doubted Brother Patrick’s denials, and there was no reason to doubt the people who had made complaints.

Turton said Brother Patrick in three different situations.

Turton is now being questioned about a file note made by someone at a legal firm representing the Marist Brothers, on June 9, 1995. It notes that CNK has “other students from his class who are prepared to support him in legal action against the Brother”.

The note goes on to say that “The problem apparently occurred in Hamilton in 1974. The Brother has no memory of difficulty with this person but concedes that there may be people who have a cause for complaint against him”.

Turton has told the royal commission he doesn’t recall being told Brother Patrick told the legal firm there may be other complainants.

Turton is now being questioned about a file note prepared by him in 2009, from a man who was at Marist Brothers Eastwood between 1963 and 1967, complaining of sexual abuse by Brother Patrick and extreme physical abuse by Brother Berchmans.

The file note says the complainant said Patrick “would come up before him and hold his hand on his chest, while it seemed to him that the Brother concerned was sexually stimulating himself. He said his father had been up to see the Brother concerned, who was also the headmaster, to complain, but he could not get an interview. His claim was that his father came up one day dressed as a plumber, claiming to check the plumbing in the house, managed to get the brother concerned to see him and physically assaulted Brother Patrick”. From that time on, the man who complained said there was no further abuse of him.

Turton became the superior at Ashgrove in 2000, while Brother Patrick was still living there. Patrick died in 2006.

Turton said he can’t recall speaking with Brother Patrick about behaviour concerns, “but I’m sure it would have been mentioned when I arrived there”. He said he was the superior, but no longer responsible for professional standards, “so I did not go into the details of that any more than that”.

Turton said Patrick was still tutoring students.

Brother Robert was headmaster. Turton said he didn’t think he spoke with Brother Robert about Patrick’s problems. Turton said he was not aware if Brother Robert was “exercising any special vigilance or supervision” over Brother Patrick.

Turton said he assumed the provincial who replaced him, Brother Michael Hill, had spoken to the principal.

In 2001 a boarder at the school complained that Brother Patrick had touched him inappropriately.

Turton contacted police and Patrick was charged.

Turton is now being questioned about a letter from Queensland police to Brother Michael Hill, dated April 10, 2001, requesting any Marist Brother records “in an effort to identify any history or circumstances which may suggest that the brother has acted in any inappropriate manner with any child during his extensive teaching career”.

Turton said he was unaware of that request. He said he could not recall if he spoke with Brother Michael about it.

Turton is now being shown a statement by the current provincial, Brother Peter Carroll, to the royal commission, in which he says “It is clear that more investigations should have been carried out in response to the complaints in the 1990s. The records show that enquiries were made and advice was sought and acted on. Butler was confronted, denied the allegations and agreed to go to therapy. A view was formed that there was no risk to students in leaving Butler in his position. Butler should have been removed from cotntact with students and the fact that he was not is deeply regrettable”.

Turton said he regretted that he didn’t stand Brother Patrick Butler down immediately. “I do regret that,” he said.

Turton said he was unaware of sexual complaints against Brother Romuald, who left the Marist Brothers in 1978, but he had a reputation as a tough man and harsh disciplinarian. Turton said he was aware of that from Romuald’s time at Hamilton Marists, and the information, from memory, came from a secretary.

Turton has been questioned about an email sent to him in 2007 by Michael Salmon from the Catholic Church’s professional standards unit. Salmon has referred on information from the then Maitland-Newcastle diocese child protection officer Helen Keevers, about a man who complained he had been sexually abused by Marist Brothers Romuald and Celestine at Maitland in the early 1960s.

The man told Keevers that he reported the abuse to a brother at the time and was beaten for it.

In his response Turton noted that Brother Celestine had died about five years ago, but there were questions about him so it was “possible”.

“Brother Romuald left the Brothers many years ago and is married, I understand. I think he is still alive but I doubt any contact with young people. Certainly not employed,” Turton wrote.

Turton was asked if he checked the records of the Marist Brothers to find out if there were any records of complaints about Romuald.

Turton: “I really can’t recall that and I’m not sure what records there would have been to check, but I just don’t recall that situation.”

Turton said when he finished his term as provincial, he assumed that the documents or files he generated had stayed at the provincial office.

Romuald was not charged until late 2012 until one of his student victims, Terry Skippen, made a statement to police. Romuald has been sentenced to 16 years’ jail for sexually assaulting 19 former students.

10.29am The royal commission has resumed. Brother Alexis Turton is in the witness box.

Counsel assisting Stephen Free has said that the royal commission provided Brother Turton with a list of Marist Brothers who had been the subject of a complaint or claim. He was asked to go through the list and mark all of those he had spoken to for the purpose of discussing allegations of having committed child sexual abuse. He was asked to mark those brothers with a “D”.

He was asked to mark with an “A” those who had admitted child sexual abuse to Turton.

The royal commission has just been told that a list had been generated by the royal commission, using data provided by the Marist Brothers, of 154 names “of people who have been the subject of claims or substantiated complaints received by the Marist Brothers”.

Justice Peter McClellan: “There are 154 names on the list, is that right?”

Free: “Yes, your Honour.”

McClellan: “I don’t know how many it is that have been marked with a ‘D’ but it is a very substantial number.”

McClellan also noted that there are 10 marked with an ‘A’ – where abuse was admitted.

Turton is being questioned about the advice he received from Father Brian Lucas in relation to a complaint about Brother Patrick from a survivor known as CQY.

On Monday we were told by Turton that Lucas said the Marists didn’t need to confront Patrick about CQY’s allegations. One of the reasons for that advice was that there were no other complaints received about Patrick. Another reason was advice that Patrick was being adequately supervised.

Turton has agreed that he was left with the understanding that if another complaint about Patrick came up, he was to contact Lucas and possibly Father Usher (for Catholic Church professional standards).

Turton is now being asked about another complaint, in September 1992, from someone identified as CNJ, through the headmaster of Hamilton Marists.

Turton’s note said: “Contacted by the headmaster Hamilton, ex-student of 1974-75. contacted the school counsellor at Hamilton. Claim of abuse at the time. Aged about 13 or 14. Man only realised later that the interactions may have been abusive. Not much detail but no penetration, intercourse - genital??. Counsellor was compassionate, told victim of protocol and the determination of the brothers and the church to address issues and offer every support. This lack of any sense of abuse seems to indicate not very serious interaction. No request for action by brothers other than checking on Brother Patrick and vigilance. Again I checked with the headmaster and counsellor at Ashgrove and with Brian Lucas and John Usher. Advice from them was don’t confront as long as no evidence or possibility of unusual behaviour.”

Turton said he spoke to CNJ.  He said CNJ chose not to go into detail.

Turton said that “at the time it didn’t seem to be what would go to the serious end of the scale of abuse and sexual abuse”.

Turton said he invited him to stay in touch, respond with counselling and offer more counselling.

Free: “But in terms of managing Brother Patrick and any risk he might still pose to other students, did you not feel hampered by the fact that you didn’t know the details of what was said to have occurred?”

Turton: “At that stage the management I saw for Brother Patrick was the awareness, the vigilance and basically following up, as was discussed with Brian Lucas and probably John Usher.”

There were now two complaints about Brother Patrick, and the response was “vigilance” while the Marist Brother was at Ashgrove Marist school in Queensland.

He said he spoke to the principal and counsellor at Ashgrove.

Free: “What did you say to them?”

Turton: “Basically, to ensure that they had heard the earlier requests clearly and that they had no concerns and the supervision was taking place.”

Free: “What was their response?”

Turton: “Oh, yes, they said ‘No worries at all’.”

He said he did not speak to Brother Patrick at the time.

Free: “There was a later occasion where you spoke to Brother Patrick about five issues at once, five complaints, do you remember that?”

Turton: “At least four or five, yes.”

Turton said he kept in contact with CNJ who was keen to understand what was happening in relation to the complaint. Turton said he told CNJ that Brother Patrick was being “well supervised by appropriate people and there were no issues of concern”.

Turton is unclear about whether he told CNJ about the earlier complaint.

Turton is now being questioned about parts of Brother Michael Hill’s statement. Hill was the provincial (Marist head of a large area, that we were told on Monday included Queensland, NSW and the ACT) after Turton.

Hill said in his statement that “we came to the conclusion that the behaviour of (Brother Patrick) Butler was injudicious and inappropriate but not criminal”.

Turton has just told the royal commission that he didn’t form such a conclusion. “I’d simply formed the opinion that it was serious enough to be closely observed and to have the two people on the spot to keep up that vigilance, to ensure that all was well”.

We are now hearing evidence of the case of two “boys in the bush” in 1992.

Turton was contacted by the headmaster of Ashgrove school after a Brother found two boys in the bush. The boys said they went away from the school because Brother Patrick was “a bit close to them, was patting their bottom and sometimes squeezing their bottom”.

Turton said a counsellor talked to the boys and “I think the end result was that they did not consider it a major issue”.

Turton: “The parents were brought in and they were part of the discussion as well.”

Free: “The parents of the two boys?”

Turton: “I’m not sure of that. I was just told that the parents were brought in, whether it was both or not, but the matter was regarded as not really a serious one at all.”

Free: “What degree of involvement did you have personally in investigating the complaint and deciding what response to take?”

Turton: “As leader, I relied on the people on the ground who were qualified to do that and I accepted that their investigation was appropriate.”

Turton said he doesn’t recall speaking to Brother Patrick.

Turton acknowledged that it was a third incident.

Free: “Brother Patrick, part of the rationale to the earlier two complaints was that you, after consulting with the school, were satisfied that Brother Patrick was being appropriately supervised and everyone was going to be vigilant, is that correct?”

Turton: “Yes.”

Free: “Were you concerned after this incident that that arrangement of supervision and vigilance was not particularly effective?”

Turton: “No, I was actually encouraged, the fact that the headmaster rang me about what turned out to be a relatively, you know, minor thing, I was pleased that he was exercising vigilance.”

Free: “So the system of vigilance was enabling you to find out about something further that had occurred?”

Turton: “Yes, and that the man was in the presence of others, so I saw that as a positive.”

Free: “It hadn’t been terribly effective in terms of preventing this occurring again in 1992, had it?”

Turton: “The assessment of it was that it was not a serious incident at all.”

Free: “But if he had had close enough access to these boys to pat and squeeze their bottoms, even if the conclusion was reached that that level of touching was not particularly serious, doesn’t it indicate that he could have just as well engaged in much more serious touching?”

Turton: “No, I felt the supervision was appropriate.”

Turton is now being shown a letter written by him in 1993.

A survivor called CQZ was contacted by him.

He was a student at Marist Brothers Eastwood in 1959 and early 1960s. He described Brother Patrick was being “very touchy feely with him. Patrick did not teach him but he found him strange and weird and had a reputation among the boys”.

McClellan is now questioning Turton about complaints by CQZ of other Brothers.

McClellan: “The behaviour that’s spoken of there is cruel and we learn of harsh physical punishments delivered to students, students put in fear, you’ve heard all this before?”

Turton: “Yes.”

McClellan: “Why was it that the Marist Brothers behaved in this way?”

Turton: “My experience was that the Marist Brothers as a group were not all like this. Undoubtedly it was a fact that there were a significant number that were. As to the exact cause of that, I’m not exactly sure. Certainly, in our early days, our teacher training was minimal, our religious training was emphasised. That could have been part of the issue, but I really don’t have all the answers to that.”

McClellan: “You don't have to be teacher trained to realise that to treat children in this way was highly inappropriate?”

Turton: “Entirely inappropriate, but being teacher trained, I think, would certainly be a big help to addressing that.”

McClellan has just told the royal commission that Turton had marked D against 52 names – meaning he had received reports of sexual abuse against 52 Brothers, although there were a few cases of excessive physical abuse.

McClellan: “If everyone who was physically abused by a Brother, beyond anything that was reasonable, had reported to you, there would have been a much greater list, wouldn’t there?”

Turton: “I athink so, yes.”

McClellan: “Again, can we ever try to understand why it is that the brothers as a group of men behaved in such a way to young children?”

Turton: “It happened. Some partial explanation can be that physical punishment was accepted in those days. But I don’t have the explanation… and for some men, whether it was a personality trait or not, I don’t know, but the issue, I think, is a tragic one and has been, is being addressed and that’s all I can say, I think.”

McClellan asked whether Turton was aware of whether the Marist Brothers themselves attempted to understand how it was that so many behaved in this way.

McClellan: “There has been no structured examination of why it was that so many Marist Brothers behaved in this way, is that what you’re telling me?”

Turton: “Not that I’m aware of in terms of one specific project to examine this, yes.”

Commissioner Andrew Murray has asked Turton if he was aware of harsh, abusive and cruel conduct by some brothers. Turton said he did have to speak to Brothers. “Not many”, he said.

Murray has asked what Turton did, as headmaster, to ensure corporal punishment was within the law.

Turton: “My understanding is that corporal punishment was within the law at that time, appropriate corporal punishment. One of the biggest issues that I faced was – there were two issues, severity and appropriateness and one of my biggest concerns was that physical punishment was used as a teaching aid.”

Murray has asked Turton if he outlawed it, while a principal.

Turton: “Basically, yes.”

Murray: “Did you?”

Turton: “Mmm.”

Murray: “In the time you were principal, if we were to call upon any of those school attendees, they would say they weren’t struck with physical force, or had their hands so terribly bruised that they couldn’t write or use them?”

Turton: “In my experience I don’t think I can recall ever having had a teacher, even someone I regarded as a very hard teacher, punching and that sort of thing.”

Turton has now been taken to a letter he wrote to Brother Patrick in August 1993.

In the letter he refers to a Crossroads program that he hopes Brother Patrick would attend. Turton said it was in part because of the complaints.

Turton has said Patrick “certainly was one of those people who was not drawn to counsellors and those psyche people and so on, as he would say, so I spoke to him a number of times before he finally accepted to do that”.

Patrick was resistant to counselling, he agreed. Patrick wrote to Turton and said he could not do the course.

Turton wrote to Patrick again after speaking with Brother Michael Hill about the complaints against Patrick.

10.19am Not much happening yet. In the media/overflow room on the fourth floor we’re waiting for something to happen upstairs. More people are filling the seats. Downstairs protesters are speaking to people about the need for a national redress scheme for survivors of child sexual abuse. A national redress scheme was recommended by the royal commission almost one year ago, to be run by the federal government using money from the institutions who failed children over decades – including the major churches – but administered by government, and topped up by government.

We have just been advised legal advisers for Brother Turton have asked for a few more minutes with their client, but we should start shortly.

10.04am The royal commission is about to resume for day five of the public hearing into Maitland-Newcastle diocese’s responses to child sexual abuse allegations involving paedophile priest Vince Ryan and Marist Brothers Romuald (Francis Cable), Dominic (Darcy O’Sullivan) and Patrick (Thomas Butler) over decades, from as early as the 1960s.

It is standing room only from the main hearing room on the sixth floor of Newcastle Courthouse where the royal commission has been sitting since early August, when it held the first part of its public hearing into Newcastle Anglican diocese’s response to child sexual abuse allegations, again over decades.

In the witness box today we will hear more evidence from former Hamilton Marist school principal and senior Marist Brother Alexis Turton, who yesterday was asked to write down a list of Marist Brothers who had admitted sexually abusing children to him during his 15 years as head of professional standards for a large part of the eastern part of Australia.

In the witness box on Monday Turton could only write down two names, although he agreed with Justice Peter McClellan that there were more than 10 names.

We will also hear today from Audrey Nash, 90, of Hamilton, whose son Andrew hanged himself in his room in 1974, at the age of 13. Andrew’s year master at the time was Brother Romuald.

Audrey will speak on behalf of so many parents who trusted the church to care for their children, and were appallingly betrayed. She will also speak of the silence that followed Andrew’s death, the impact of that on her family, and the absolute failure of church leaders to adequately respond, in a Christian way, to her family’s profound and life-long grief.

10.00am

Good morning. It’s Joanne McCarthy back at the Royal Commission hearings in Newcastle, with the focus today on the response of Catholic Church authorities in the Maitland-Newcastle region to allegations of child sexual abuse.

To read more about the hearings into the Newcastle Anglican diocese, check the video and links below.